The post A New Park for Downtown Minneapolis has generated a lot of great comments and ideas on what a new public plaza / should, and shouldn't, look like in downtown Minneapolis.
One of the reoccuring themes in the comments was the role Nicollet Mall would play in the success of a new public space. The comments, coupled with an intriguing appraisal of Nicollet Mall from an outsider (resource: Central Library might be joined by new park) raise a good question. Is Nicollet Mall overrated?
When asked about Minneapolis’ public spaces, [Daniel] Biederman said he thinks Nicollet Mall is nice but overrated. He said the Loring Park area needs to be better lit and said he loves the city’s industrial space that was converted into a park.
Any comments? Feedback? Reactions?
Filed under Urban Design, Public Spaces, Community Planning with 15 Comments
|15 Responses to “Is Nicollet Mall Overrated?”
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November 5th, 2006 at 7:36 pm
Nicollet Mall is about 3 fixes away from being fantastic.
However, those fixes are pretty big.
The big things it's got going for it: Transit, Gaviidae Commom (talk about overachieving — Saks Off Fifth, Nieman Marcus and a bunch of other pretty good stores, in a great looking building and near Macy's), Peavey Plaza (great place for outdoor concerts) and great restaurants (Dakota, Masa, Vincent, etc).
The things it doesn't have going for it: Little publicity/few events, VERY ugly walkway (signs, sidewalk), too many out-of-place chains (yikes… that Panera looks frightening), no logical link to other areas (Hennepin) … and no people.
With all the talk about making Washington Ave the new urban walkway, why don't we just fix up Nicollet Mall a little bit? Oh yeah, there's not 300 condos pressuring Rybak to do something about it over on Nicollet.
November 5th, 2006 at 8:50 pm
My big beef with Nicollet is that its a half-assed pedestrian street. Buses are not foot traffic. They are buses - they're loud, they spew diesel fumes, they'll smash into you if you meander into the street. We allow buses and cars on every other street in downtown. Can't we complete the Nicollet Ave experiment and eliminate buses too? Why not make some adjoining street our dedicated bus street? The two purposes Nic. Ave is trying to fulfil - bus transitway and pedestrian ave. - may be mutually exclusive.
There are great precedents for pedestrian/bike-only streets all over the world, but you don't have to go that far - look at the Loring Greenway that connects Nicollet Ave to Loring Park - a pedestrian-only "road" (really a sidewalk as wide as a road) surrounded by high-rise apartments. Look at Milwaukee Ave in Seward neighborhood. Look at the Midtown Greenway. I can think of a number of examples in European cities.
This is really as simple as we all think it is - create pathways through your city that can only be used by cars, and you only have cars. Create pathways through your city that are appropriate for people, and people will use them.
All the elements are there - high density surroundings, significant retail, crowded sidewalk cafes. The new public space being proposed by the library could be a wide-open gateway into Nicollet Ave. We need to take the leap and get rid of the buses and taxis.
But what do I know!
November 6th, 2006 at 3:39 am
I see some other commenters beat me on thisone.
I would agree that Nicollet mall could be made better if it were pedestrian only. If memory serves people on bikes have been killed by buses on Nicollet Mall.
November 6th, 2006 at 6:14 am
Driver 2165 (who you have a link to) is a bus driver in Mpls. You should hear his rants on Nicollet Mall.
November 6th, 2006 at 7:41 am
I don't know how I missed this thread in my RSS reader! Thanks for emailing me.
If a cyclist was killed on the mall it was before I started driving six years ago. I'd assume they're prohibited for safety reasons, and as a daily cyclist I have no problem with that. Messengers are allowed on the mall, and it's just as well because they actually know how to ride.
The reason they put buses on Nicollet Mall in the first place is that they wanted it to be successful. That is, they wanted a reason for people to actually go to the mall, making it busy, and thus more successful (i.e. who wants to go to downtown St. Paul?). And it was a good idea in theory, but we now have other problems. If the buses were moved, so would probably 90% of the people on the sidewalk. Don't forget we have a skyway system.
That's not to say that buses shouldn't be moved off. I say move them, and let Nicollet figure something out on it's own. Traditionally, Marquette and Hennepin were the major north/south transitways downtown. That's why Nicollet is narrow compared to all the other streets. There were never streetcar tracks laid.
Still, the city should be doing more to attract businesses. There's nothing wrong with chains, but there should be more unique chains. For example, Why isn't there a Room & Board downtown? That store is based here. Also companies like Apple and H&M put their retail outlets in central shopping districts around the world. But we're stuck with Panera, Marshall's, and a Sak's 5th Ave outlet.
November 13th, 2006 at 6:58 pm
Though I've yet to visit Nicollet Mall, I get the sense from these comments that its look and feel might be similar to other popular transit malls (please pardon me if I'm off the mark): outdated, a 1970's downtown revitalization "solution" yet to reach fruition, featuring bulky furniture and a marginally maintained streetscape. (If you've been to Fulton Mall, Brooklyn, then you know the source of my stereotype!) Portland, Ore. transit mall is responding to this seemingly common fate in an interesting way–by adding a lane of light-rail and allowing automobiles to traverse the entire length of the mall (which leads us to question its "mall" status.) Perhaps they're on to something: open the "mall" to all modes of locomotion (bike, ped, bus, light-rail, car) and let the market–its users–dictate the inter-modal interplay. A comfortable, pleasant balance could be struck, whereby peds and bicyclists build priority over autos. In the end, as we know, a great mall will be a place where people want to go, and once they get there, stay. How they get there and how they traverse it, maybe we shouldn't attempt to plan that one so precisely and assuredly.
November 14th, 2006 at 6:30 pm
I personally think Nicollet Mall works quite well as a destination. It's not perfect, but it's getting better as it becomes more oriented to downtown residents (have you seen the expansion of the food section in Target?).If you want to find the heart of Minneapolis, I think one of the first places you visit is Nicollet Mall. It has the city's largest names in shopping, is clean/safe, and plenty of restaurants/coffee shops. I even think it feels like it is becoming more active during non-business hours.
I would also give a qualified opinion that it it works very well as a (linear) transit hub. My qualifications are these. You can go there at anytime and pickup a bus (particularly during rush hours) since service is exceptional on the Mall. However, the flow of transit on Nicollet is horrendus, due to bus congestion. I believe you can literally walk as fast as a bus moves down Nicollet during rush hour (see photo in original post).
The problem is these two uses (a) as a destination for shopping / cafes) and (b) transit/bus station are not entirely compatible. The trick is how do you balance these uses?
I agree with Ryan: if you remove the transit - the feeling that you can pick up a bus anywhere on Nicollet or be dropped off anywhere - I think Nicollet will suffer. Many times I've popped into Target on a whim while waiting for a bus. On the other hand, many times I've just felt a good meal was ruined by bus noise and exhaust.
Seth: In terms of "mix of uses" Nicollet feels similar to Fulton (the cross between transit and commerical) but the quality of stores is much higher… I think because Nicollet also serves as the hub of the central business district in Minneapolis. But it's a great example of the two uses working (or not working) together.
By the way, great comments and ideas (sorry for the delay in acknowledging all of the participation - I've been out of town).
November 14th, 2006 at 10:56 pm
The slow speed is because the speed limit is 10 mph and strictly enforced by transit supervisors. That actually causes more noise and fumes because most buses don't shift into second gear until 12 mph, so we roll down Nicollet at a very high RPM. 11 mph on the radar is grounds for a written violation.
November 15th, 2006 at 12:48 pm
In boston, we have a "subway" line called the silver line that is actually busses. When it's above ground it works on gas like a normal bus, but underground it switches to use overhead electric wires. I wonder if doing something like that on Nicollet (like when the buses from south mpls hit grant they switch to electric) wouldn't help. What would be awesomest (if that's a word) would probably be if the buses stayed on Nicollet, but went underground for the length of the mall. That way you'd still have people congrigating on the mall but the buses would be out of the way which would, essentially, make a twelve block long public square.
November 15th, 2006 at 1:14 pm
Metro Transit wanted the Hiawatha light rail to go down the mall instead of 5th St, but the business owners nixed the idea (What? Minneapolis shortsighted?). The Seattle/Boston trolley/diesel switch would be perfect, but I can't see the city or the business owners liking the idea of an overhead catenary for the length of the mall. Personally, I think overhead wires make a street look better.
November 16th, 2006 at 10:31 am
Seattle's bus tunnel works the same way. Once buses hit the tunnel, they turn off their diesel engines and hook up to electricity (which is of course silent and emission-free). There may be other ways energy technologies that could work. Hybrid-electric buses could also turn off their diesel engines and run on batteries the length of the Mall. Hydrogen Fuel Cell buses are quiet and emission free wherever they go, so no issue.
Transit systems are great ways to try out innovative vehicle technologies because the cost-differential is less than for passenger cars, they are a great way to get visibility, and there are federal grants available. Metro transit has, unfortunately, shown a lot of reluctance to get on board for projects like this. They were offered the opportunity to participate in a fuel cell demonstration and refused. BOOO!
I'm coming around to the idea that Nicollet Mall may need transit to bring in the people, but would still prefer that it remained a true pedestrian mall with only people and bikes. Maybe this need will decrease as more people move into downtown, and we can eventually make it a true pedestrian mall. Maybe better not to build permanent alignments of lightrail through the Mall, lest we live to regret it later.
November 16th, 2006 at 10:42 am
I really like the idea of the underground bus (or even the electric bus). It does the two things well, draws people to the area (and then gets them to / from where they want to go).
The idea that hasn't been discussed as fully is the (or maybe ealier and I haven't caught it) is the bus router or circulator (the bus-like system that runs to bring people from one part of the downtown to another part of the downtown). A common example might be at airports, where various systems bring you from one terminal to another.
I've heard it works well in Denver (there was a comment to that regard on a previous post) but I like the single bus ride. I think the more transfers you make people do, the less likely they are to take transit.
In fact, I've been advocating for a direct bus line (express, preferably) from the front of my apt. to my workplace for awhile…
November 16th, 2006 at 1:38 pm
Looks like we're not the only ones interested in this topic:
"To make the city more inviting to drive and walk through, [Minneapolis Mayor] Rybak recommended concentrating commuter express buses on Marquette and 2nd Avenues and building attractive, high quality shelters to serve riders.
To make Nicollet Mall more pleasant for pedestrians and patrons at outdoor cafes, the mayor called on Metro Transit to drastically reduce the buses using the mall, keeping only the routes that use clean, quiet hybrid buses."
Article: Mayor's downtown vision features more two-way streets, streetcars
http://www.startribune.com/462/story/815949.html
November 16th, 2006 at 8:59 pm
why no patina or bibelot? they're local and in every place BUT nicollet mall. if they can survive in linden hills, they can do well and help out the shopping down on nicollet mall…
November 16th, 2006 at 10:22 pm
Um… I guess they could add more small old lady stores like Bibelot and Patina downtown. Why not?
Met council ordered something like 100-150 new hybrid buses, and it appears that that's what the fleet is going to change to. Those buses sound more like buses from the Jetsons than diesel buses.